Conan RPG Magic and other S&S systems

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:22 pm

As an idle holiday project I'm compiling all the different spells, feats, and alchemical items in the Conan d20 books for easy reference, and I was wondering about others' experiences with this system, or perhaps other games at a similar power level.

While there are still exploits to abuse with the scholar class and the sorcery system, such as recharge mechanics during combat to offset the painfully low number of power points a sorcerer character has, as well as minion control being one of the stronger routes to take, there are still considerable limits placed on this magic system as compared to 3.5 casters.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:19 pm

I did a one-off adventure mixing Conan d20 with Cthulhu d20. The two magical systems actually work fairly well together - Conan has the "Stars are Right" type magical paths which nicely complement both the theme and mechanics to Mythos-spells, which can be distinct and overlay regular sorcery styles.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:41 pm

How does the Conan casting system work? I remember downloading the book once and hating the classes, so I never got around reading the magic rules.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:22 pm

As a sorcerer you have available to you a certain number of magical styles (collections of associated spells) and power points (PP, used to cast spells). Many spells have various prerequisites and requirements before you can learn and/or cast them.

When you want to cast a spell, you spend the PP and make a magical attack roll (d20 + magic attack bonus + CHA modifier) or skill roll, depending on the spell.

Bihlbo · Post by **Bihlbo** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:34 pm

I loved the skill roll involved, I thought that worked really well with everything. I also found that because of the limitations magic was either a totally scary and awesome tool to throw at PCs or it was a fun and very thematic part of a character that worked kinda well without breaking the game. Then again, I never got into high levels so I don't know if magic users win the end game or not. I got the impression they don't.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:27 am

I'm in the middle of cleaning out the fluff and bad writing on the spell descriptions now, as is standing around 150 pages. I figured I'd describe the strongest effects possible, so as to perhaps foster future comments as to how other games might best simulate Sword and Sorcery level magic. A great deal of the effects are meant to be thematic more than useful in a game; there are multiple methods of sacrifice for example, with little to no mechanical difference between them.

A couple of notes: The Conan system system derives saving throws vs magic as 1d20+Magic Attack Bonus (for dedicated sorcerers ½ level, rounded down) +Cha mod. It is a fairly low Hit Point game (HD through level 10, then static bonus thereafter) and low magic (sorcerers start with 4+Wis mod Spell Points, maxing at 9-11+Wis mod, although this can be augmented through sacrifice, drug use, draining life from slaves, and killing enemies if feat Opportunistic Sacrifice is taken), many effects take several minutes or longer to cast. There is a focus on alchemy as a way for the sorcerer to contribute more directly in combat, although given how out of whack the prices are the flask-rogue isn't really an option. Schools are gained at 1/2/4/8/12/16/20.

Cosmic Sorcery: A couple of ways to take 20 on the Magic Attack Roll, creation of teleportation gates
Counterspells: Dispels, which can be made preemptively as well as transferable to another, protection against divination
Curses: 1 point touch attack Will SoD (paralysis), long term debuffs (from day long through cursing one's descendents), sympathetic magic a la 'voodoo dolls', death curses, plagues, rituals to turn the unwilling into monsters
Divination: ritual that causes hallucinations , with possible +1 to Wisdom, pseudo astral projection. Future reading, etc.
Fire Magic: Defensive Blast: 5' radius explosion 1d6/PP (at 20th level possible (45+5xWis mod)d6, with secondary explosions, 1d6/level touch attack, shapechange into fire elemental
Frost Magic: Similar D.B +Blindness, capstone combining flight, hurricane winds, weather control, thunder and lightning.
Hypnotism: Ranged Will SoD, dominate
Immortality: Vampiric Touch, enhancement bonus to strength ritual, gain vampire template, pull a Dorian Gray
Nature Magic: Animal Companion as Druid -3, Control Magical Beasts and Monstrous Humanoids of HD=level, Animal/Insect Summoning
Necromancy: Touch Attack Fort SoD, Zombie/Ghoul/Mummy/Flesh Golem/Terracotta Warrior creation, pseudo-invisibility/magic jar, Defensive Blast: 10' radius 1d6/PP cold damage
Racist Asian pastiche magic: Wild Shape, True Seeing, Elemental Protection, Dominate, Air Walk, demon banishment, various bamboo-themed shit
Prestidigitation: Telekinesis, Animating Objects
Sea Witchery/Weather Witching (These two should probably be combined, along with any weather stuff from Nature Magic): Weather Control, Poison and Grenade Creation, several ways to help or hinder ships
Serpent Magic: Ritual that can reset Str/Dex/Cha (there's a lot of people eating required), Snake themed things from other schools
Summoning: Demon/Elemental Summoning (with XP cost), demon summoning made permanent by changing to human shape, plane shift

Edit: Oh, and I like the idea of working with Call of Cthulhu style magic, particularly given the correspondence between the authors of both settings. I imagine the spells could either be worked in using Conan's Corruption mechanic, or kept on a separate Sanity track.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:09 am

At this point, the very instant I see a "magic skill roll" in a d20 product, I put it down. d20 skill rolls just don't generate the kinds of numbers that would tell you want a level appropriate effect would be. Even if you got rid of all the horrendously swingy bullshit like capes of +30 to skill checks and inspirational ballads of getting +10 to your next roll, theres still the fact that the base rank increase is only +5% success per level. Seriously, you go up two levels and then if you raised your ranks properly, then you have a ten percent chance of having your effect go off when it wasn't going to if you tried the same thing before going up those levels.

It just doesn't work. That's why the Epic Spellcasting rules were garbage. It's why the True Namer was garbage. It's why the Spelldancer was garbage. That's why the Iron Heroes Arcanist was garbage. Skill Rolls + Magic Effects don't work in d20. They never have, and they never will. If you want to have magic use some kind of skill roll, you need to use a different skill system where being more skilled actually gives you a reasonable chance of success at tasks that being less skilled does not. HERO system's 3d6 roll could work that way, as could Shadowrun's pile of dice. But the d20 system will never ever give you a satisfactory magic skill roll. Ever. You can take that to the bank.

-Username17

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:13 pm

Skill-based d20 magic systems are indeed unworkable. Conan doesn't have a skill based magic system. The 'Magic Attack Roll' is almost exclusively used to determine saving throws. In a couple of effects, it determines opposed skill check DC, and one spell uses it to determine duration. What circumstantial modifiers can apply to the magic attack roll are generally slight; anything over ~+3 requires exacting circumstances and generally a ritual.

One could argue that instead of the 'magic attack bonus' line on class charts all spell effects should resolve as d20* +1/2 character level +Cha bonus. All that does in this case is bring the effects of 'dabblers' in line with dedicated sorcerers.

*Or just use 10, making it as the standard d20 effect ST. I kinda like that amount of swinginess, but whatever.

Edit: There are skill checks involved in a couple of spells, as denoted below. I don't think it qualifies, though, as a skill-based system by any stretch.

Divination: 6 effects use Knowledge (arcana) checks. 2 have DC 11. The equivalent of scrying has an arcana check of 10+1/100 miles distance between caster and target. Two are hour long ritual versions of Bardic Knowledge. The last is this wonky shamanic trance spirit world deal, and it only suggests a skill check if you don't want to roleplay it out.
Fire Magic: a concentration check is needed before any casting, which is good for 10 min/level.

Bihlbo · Post by **Bihlbo** » Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:19 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:At this point, the very instant I see a "magic skill roll" in a d20 product, I put it down. d20 skill rolls just don't generate the kinds of numbers that would tell you want a level appropriate effect would be.

Yeah, if you're talking about D&D I totally agree. The magic system in Conan is different however, and the effects you produce are not supposed to be reliable, common efforts like fireball, summon monster, or fly. They were intended to be scary, difficult, and otherworldly. In the games I played when the scholar said he was casting a spell, it was extremely noteworthy both because it's probably something we hadn't seen before and because we weren't sure it would work at all. YMMV but the numbers you "want" not being produced seemed to work well for our game.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:49 am

They were intended to be scary, difficult, and otherworldly.

So how well did the game achieve this?

Bihlbo · Post by **Bihlbo** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:30 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:
They were intended to be scary, difficult, and otherworldly.
So how well did the game achieve this?

Not for a moment will I claim to be an expert on this, because it's been a couple of years since I've played it and I haven't played a game in the second edition version of the game at all, but I seem to remember that it worked quite well (some spells are just less otherworldly than others - hypnotism is neat but it doesn't summon demonic powers or mutate you). Compared to a guy doing 2d10+13 damage on a power attack, with a very real possibility of insta-death as a result of massive damage, magic seemed fairly weak but far more snazzy.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:41 pm

The system seems well suited to the cliche of stopping a ceremony ran by a vile sorcerer who is addled by the smoke of the black lotus, showing signs of physical corruption and mental instability from consorting with demons, and is getting ready to sacrifice some topless chick while insects pour out of his mouth, storm clouds loom overhead, and his stitched together abomination tears the limbs off would-be heroes. Most effects that are usable in a combat time frame are meant to look like stage magic or mesmerism.

It is a bit hackneyed at this point, I suppose, but the whole sword and sorcery genre needs to be taken as tongue in cheek. Otherwise it quickly descends into The Pleasure Prison of the B'thuvian Demon Whore style shame-gaming.

Also, I'm hoping to use this in a game where the characters are the sorcerers, who have to fend off thieves and barbarians (coincidentally the only real classes worth playing in the game) while waiting for the Stars to be Right

Bihlbo · Post by **Bihlbo** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:25 pm

Nebuchadnezzar wrote:Also, I'm hoping to use this in a game where the characters are the sorcerers, who have to fend off thieves and barbarians (coincidentally the only real classes worth playing in the game) while waiting for the Stars to be Right

I'd play this game. I think it'd make the magic system really fun to just focus on that and ignore the physical combat goodies. I know what you mean about thieves and barbarians. My thief was a murder machine*, and I remember seeing a level 2 barbarian with a polearm fend off an entire pack of wolves single-handedly without once getting hurt.

Awesome description, BTW.

* - I don't know if 2nd ed. addressed it, but being a thief with weapon focus and that specialized SA option sucked monkey tail when combined with the transitory nature of all possessions. If a GM is running the game as intended by the rules, you should not make it more than about 3 sessions before you lose your belongings and have to make do with what you can scavenge off the dead. So those feats and class abilities tied to one weapon type? Screw you buddy, you looted the wrong corpse and get to enjoy mediocrity.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:39 pm

and I remember seeing a level 2 barbarian with a polearm fend off an entire pack of wolves single-handedly without once getting hurt.

Wait... what? That's something that seriously I can do. That's really not a very impressive feat at all.

But the bottom line is that from a mechanistic point of view all the claptrap about magic being mysterious and shit doesn't make the rules not suck. Fundamentally, your level bonus determines very little in regards to how likely your shit is to work. The DC shifts for painting your underpants yellow or waiting for the stars to be right or whatever the fuck are much much larger than the bonuses you get from going up in level.

Meaning that it suffers exactly the same problem that all other skill rolls for magic do in d20 ports: you get effects that are not level appropriate, low level wizards are too likely to pull off bullshit that unbalances high level games and high level wizards are too likely to fail at piddly shit. Because it's a flat fucking curve and you get a 5% fucking bonus every level.

-Username17

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:01 pm

Well, sortof. When you learn a Sorcery style, you get one basic spell (provided you meet the prerequisites). Getting more spells is a function of either a class feature or a feat like Sorceror's Boon, and again their are prerequisites on each spell which generally equate to a level limit because they demand Magic Attack Bonus +X or X skill ranks in Herbalism or something.

So while yes, 1d20 + Magic Attack Bonus + Cha is pretty crap, the way that the spells and styles are structured it's obvious that the intent is that by the time you can take a really powerful spell, you've got enough juice to actually cast the damn thing. I've never done a Conan d20 game past 3rd level, so I couldn't tell you if it actually functions that way or not.

The small number of spells sorcerers know in Conan d20, and Power Point limitations, also means they tend to rely more on herbal/alchemical items. It's part of the reason too I like to add Cthulhu d20 magic in there as a coexisting option, because it gives sorcerers a quicker route to power and a broader repertoire of effects...albeit at a tremendous price in terms of ability damage, Sanity loss, etc.

Nebuchadnezzar · Post by **Nebuchadnezzar** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:24 pm

I will rephrase my earlier post: The only real skill roll use in this magic system aside from standards like Concentration occupies a similar mindshare to Scry being a skill in 3.0. Even then the DCs are minimal enough so as to generally be ignored. And, as stated above, there are skill prerequisites to learning various spells, but those skills are not actively used in the casting of those spells.

The only reasons I can imagine this is difficult to understand as being different from skill based effect systems like Truenaming is that it is either being conflated with the attack roll to determine an opponent's saving throw (d20+1/2level+Cha mod), the viability of such being a separate issue, or instead a desire to be petulant.

One might argue that there are too many potential modifiers one may apply to any given Magic Attack Roll. Getting more than +2 or +3 to DC requires either rituals that can exceed a day in duration for a single effect, or dumpster diving, paying no mind to the cultural constraints which are a large part of this setting. Most potential bonuses are restricted to a single nation, and given the strong racist tendencies of pulp fiction of the source material's era not meant to be combined.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:36 am

Wait... what? That's something that seriously I can do. That's really not a very impressive feat at all.

Aside from that, Frank is right, assuming that you are playing in a traditional D&D game that embraces high-powered antics. In a low-powered D&D game, I can foresee the d20 skill check for spells working adequately (not well, mind you, but not a total and complete clusterfuck the way that truenaming and Iron Heroes' magic system work).

If, for instance, you make a Magic check when you cast hypnotism and you have the following options based on your results: hypnotize one target (15 or less), hypnotize two targets (16-25), hypnotize three targets (26-35), hypnotize four targets (36-45), and hypnotize five targets (46+), you're honestly not looking at too much in terms of power imbalance. Sure, there's the chance that the low-level wizard will hypnotize a whole group of enemies, but he's not really snapping the game in half the way he might if, say, you have exponential effects based on linear mathematics.

A bad example of the above would be if we had a spell called charm that were to allow you to do something with your results such as: cast charm person (15 or less), cast charm monster (16-25), cast dominate person (26-35), cast mass charm monster (36-45), and cast dominate monster (46+).